Heaven's Lights Heaven's Lights: "The Farce Of Freedom"

Friday, March 17, 2006

"The Farce Of Freedom"


It is absolutely expected thing that I will choose and start with the case of Improper Cartons, that disfigured Prophet Mohammed, which made me so sad and felt so bad.

I wrote many times about this case in many western sites and I feel sick over and over when I meet up with ignorant westerns know nothing about the true case and BLAH BLAH BLAH …. They just repeat what they saw or read in their media like Parrots, saying words without knowing what's that whole about? .. they Just locked their minds and left the thinking and seeking for others, which are misguided groups.

Their excuses and lies:

1- They claimed that it is reflect the "Freedom Of Press". But we know that the freedom has its limits. Besides, Freedom not means to be Rude and Offensive. Most of all, Your freedom ends when others freedom start.

2- If they wanted to express an idea or view, what that will be by dirty images that far far away from truth, I saw some of that cartoons and I couldn’t find any clear idea or clue for view except that they are really and I mean really hate Muslims and Islam AND know nothing about Pure Islam and The Prophet Of Tolerance Mohammed.

3- you should know that cartoons were not represent "Freedom Of Press", otherwise, why the same newspaper refused to publish similar cartoons about JESUS 3 years ago….and they said at that time "That cartoons with hurt and offend people feelings, and not only Christians!!" That was really sensitive and considerate act …So Sweet Of Them………but what happened when it comes to us!!??!!

By the way, we as real Muslims will not accept to allow or see any bad imaging for any Holy Icons…even JESUS…we are dignifying JESES, MOSES, NOAH, MUHAMMED, etc, etc, etc, . They are all Messengers Of God, and They suffered and tortured to complete their Holy Mission… which was to spread God's words.

4- Denmark government said that they can't stop the freedom of press because they have the right to write whatever they want!!!!!

What A Joke!

Honestly, I can't believe this, so what if their media decided to insult and defame innocent people, Is that possible??

Beside, in the west there is nothing of this freedom, Why???

Because many of Neutral/Colorless Journalists, Newspapers and Medias terrorized to stop their honest and FREE pens of writing the truth that westerns and other try to bury.


Example: the story of " David Irving"…The British Historian…What Kind of crime he has done??
He found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust???
Is The Holocaust Became a Holy Icon…Untouchable Case?!!!!
He only said his view points, Expressed his thoughts and opinions!
Maybe he has new facts, new truths about that.
You should convince him about what you see it's that Truth...with opposed view!
Who Knows?? You could find a new discovers or new Facts, confirm or disconfirm the Case.

"Where is The Freedom Of Speech and Express Here?!!!"

"Holocaust denier Irving is jailed"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm

"Hope You can see or tell me what is the different here???"


Back to Main Subject:

PS1: You must know that before all that protests and angry crowds in many countries and boycott camp , there were serious attempts to solve the case peacefully and friendly by some Islamic governments and even active Islamic groups in many places. They tried to convince and ask politely The JP newspaper to say small word "SORRY" while what they did was really really ugly and out of politeness. They were so arrogant and refuse to meet up with active people to find a fair deal. They didn't care or try to see others points view.

They came back again not because they were convinced of their terrible mistake and wanted to correct what they have done. No, all that was because of Boycott Camp…people were so serious in many countries to boycott the products of Denmark…so it was the material thing which made them think again. If there was no boycott decision, I'm sure that will not be any wish to open any dialogue with Islamic World.

So sad, that the money only made them move not their clear and clean minds. So sad to be so dark, so black and hate others because they are different.

A writer said once: "All people have the seeds of hatred towards anyone different whether because of the color or the religion"

This is true, but we don't want to growing such a seeds like that, why we don't make our hearts clean and strong ground for love and respect…

PS2: You must know too that some protests went badly in some places by some Extremers, who are not represent the whole Muslims or Islam. You should not judge all Muslims (who are more that 1 milliard!) by acts of some!.
The Majority of Muslims were so peaceful, friendly and didn't make any stupid acts, they just moved on in the boycott process after the failure of all the peaceful dialogue for Danes to see the truth.

I'm thinking Now, if there is any possibility to sue anyone for attacking "something I consider it as Holy Icon" like what happed with "David Irving" and throw him/her to jail?

Hmmmmmmmm…

15 Comments:

Blogger halalhippie said...

As salaam aleikum
u know who I am. Sorry for hiding my blogger identity on th blog where we met...there are some anons there I _don't wanna talk with (please find it in your heart to forgive them, or ignore them, they are as frightened as I am)

Lots of emotions, well so have I....where to start ?
I try ur last Q:"is any possibility to sue anyone for attacking "something I consider it as Holy Icon" J-posten _is_ being sued at the moment, don't know for what this time. The Danish blasphemy law doesn't apply here: it hasn't been used for maybe 70 years, and it was mostly about the status of the Danish church.

The racism law doesn't really work either: I guess Danish law never expected this.

J-posten has been put before the "board of press" in DK and has been heavily reprimanded. But it's not a court of law.

Lots of other Q: lots of good points. Let me make one: the Prophet (phuh) was not insulted: Muslims were. And let me ask: why do (some) Muslims so badly want to PUNISH ? A stupid paper, a whole nation ?

It's like a little boy in class saying a curse-word, he just heard from older kids: teacher gets mad and beats the boy. He's still mad so he beats the whole class.

But I understand your anger ,do you
understand my shame ? My national pride has suffered, I'm hurt too.

"It is absolutely expected thing that I will choose and start with the case of Improper Cartons,"

I started blogging at the exact same time for the exact same reason. We need to reach out and talk.

Blessings

5/02/2006 3:53 PM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

ok, I'll try another: " David Irving"…The British Historian…He found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust??? Is The Holocaust Became a Holy Icon…Untouchable Case?!!!!"

In other words "how can you mock Muslims, and not Jews ?" Very good point, it could look as if we haver double standards about "free speech"

Austria was part of the 3rd Reich in WW2 and took part in the Holocaust. Denmark was occupied by Germany, and most Danish Jews escaped to Sweden (but that's another story.

Denmark has no law against questioning the historical data of the Holocaust, If David I. had made his speech here, he would only risk having a carricature drawn of him :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving

In fact Hizb-ut Tahrir is not illegal in DK (is it in many Muslim countries) one of the top guys has been put in jail for calling for violence against Danish Jews.

The Nazi party is allowed, too. If you put organisations like these underground, they'll be underground.

Holocaust denial/critique is a different thing in EU and the ME: If the German could "prove" the the Jews made it look worse than it was, they could tell each other: "well, we were not so bad guys after all"

The Arab nations would think that Israel would have to pack up and leave. I don't think they would do that.

But this is about the cartoons. Let me say this:
1) they were only meant for Danish people (Muslims and natives) as part of a debate.
2) J-posten _has_ apologised.
http://62.242.178.124/jp_brev_arabisk.pdf

Hope ur still willing to share your thoughts.

5/04/2006 1:48 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

Dear halalhippie:
Thank u so much for ur proper way to discuss and for ur polite way to show urself, I'm really happy that u understood me and accepted my personal views.
First: we say to each Prophet (peace be upon him).
Second: Lots of Muslims have that deep emotions toward their religion and their prophet, I said that some of them did wrong to express their anger and demur by attack and burn buildings…etc. for that I decided to make this issue the first post of this Blog, in my country some people went in peaceful protests, many didn't even go out and they made it more practical by joining the Boycott Process,, we were really hurt by that, but still, there are many things can help more.
What do u don't know dear that I was in love with Denmark and my love started when I knew prince Fredrick and his engagement to Mary Donaldson, from that time I started to search and look and get more information, and I found out that Denmark is remarkable country and people, I loved ur queen, the princes Fredrick and Joachim, the princess Alexandra and Mary. Then, the queen let me down by her generalizing critical, if she did really study the real Islam, she must found out that what Islam teaches us to do is to be more higher and superb in our good manners and dealing with others.
but there were many before the JP came along.
Well, I don't hate anyone, but I was sad that when people here started to boycott process seriously, the JP and government of Denmark came again seeking for solutions and then apologized,, after they said: no to all the attempts of finding a settlement of this case.
U said: "they were only meant for Danish people (Muslims and natives) as part of a debate." Anything touch the essence of Islam in indecent way in any part of this world it will touch each Muslim, the cartoons got not any meaning or good base of debate, except disfiguring, we will accept it, but it was clear, it was mocking.

I know that there are some Muslims are bigot and presented us in the ugliest way and not even present the real Muslims nor real Islam, so we try to do something, to deal and contact people who received nothing but the false images.
I know that there are good people not only in Denmark but in every place of this world, we find the good and the bad.
I gave the example of David Irving bcos I was really confused.. why???, then I read about the whole story,
well, I should admit that I like in Jews their active wills to prove and establish what they see it right of them and working in silence to do it not drawling about it without any real works.

This is a fast reply, and sorry if I didn't answer all things, still imperfect human ;)

5/06/2006 1:25 PM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

Thanks for your kind reply. As you have seen on the blog where we met, I make a lot of "smart remarks", I do not wish to hurt you, and I will try to control my language.

I love your Fred-and-Mary story: that was a real fairy-tale: I remember at their wedding I was _so_ tired of hearing about Mary's dress, that I turned off the radio :-)

" Lots of Muslims have that deep emotions toward their religion and their prophet" yes, the whole world knows that by now. But before the cartoons, if you had asked the man on the street in DK about the taboo of depicting the Prophet (pbuh) - he didn't even know about it. I'm sorry to say, if you had asked him "who is the most famous Muslim in the world" he might say Osama bin Laden or Muhammad Ali (the boxer) or even Ayatolla Khomeiny of Iran.

The way most ppl here look at Jesus: he was a man who lived 2000 years ago, started the religion that our grandparents lived by. He was a good man, but not God. You can joke about him. No problem. Jesus laughs with you over the good jokes, and laughs at you over the bad jokes.

There is one way we respect him: we would never call a boy child "Jesus" it's unthinkable. The poor boy would be teased in school (can u turn water into wine ?). In Spanish-speaking (Catholic) countries it's no problem, strangely.

So naturally, "we" think Mohammed is to "you" what Jesus is to "us" and cannot understand what the problem is. So you see, we have a lot to learn (and we have learned a lot)
This ignorance shames me deeply.

But ur right the cartoons _were_ mocking. I will not try to deny that.

Take a look at your Milky Lady

5/07/2006 3:12 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

As for Fred-Mary, yeah, I liked her wedding dress "and her 200s something years old veil" and I have lots of their wedding pics, and I lost one special pic that touched me a lot, "that pics showed Fred with tears in his eyes when his bride came inside the church, I thought that was really wonderful and unique moment, bcos usually the brides went to tears not grooms" ;)
Yea, by the way, why Alexandra and Mary have to converted from the Anglican and Protestant to the Lutheran faith? So, u have this differences in the Christianity.
Anyway, I'm so happy u came again, hahahahahah, and still u commented in funny way, yeah, the whole world know that Muslims r very very sensitive toward their religion and Holy Icons, and mostly they don't know that we don't support any imaging for any Holy Icons, not only Prophet Mohammed.
That's what's making me really sorrowful, the western people know nothing about real Muslims and real Islam, they got the image of that riot Ben Laden and his group, but I like Mohammed Ali the Boxer and he is wonderful and Real Muslim, but I don't know and I don't like Ayatolla Khomeiny of Iran, I don't even trust Iranians that much and they have different behaviors that not related to real Islam, and I really want to talk about that "and I'm 100% sure that many will attack me if I did".
Well, u r right, Jesus in the west got different views, some people named their child "Jesus" and other reject this, some like to draw him and other don't, and so on. But I can't accept their mocking on him and on other messengers of GOD, even by harmless cartoon, still, not accepted act, if I love someone I will hate to see any funny cartoon about him even the harmless one, so how about great men like prophets!?!!!

Sorry about my "Milky Lady" :o)

5/10/2006 4:11 AM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

thanks for ur kind reply, I'm happy u still wanna talk.
"why Alexandra and Mary have to converted from the Anglican and Protestant to the Lutheran faith? So, u have this differences in the Christianity."

I'm glad u ask: so many things ppl don't know about other countries. Yes, Prince Frederik - when he becomes king - will be the head of the Danish church. For that reason he (and his wife) MUST be a member of it. The royal family are the only ones who must be a member of the church.

And yes "we" have many different Christian churches: Catholics and Protestants/Lutherans have been killing each other for centuries liek Sunni and Shi'a. We are imperfect human...sadly.

"I don't even trust Iranians that much and they have different behaviors that not related to real Islam" big difference to u, small difference to "us" in the West. Very few here can tell the differnence: if you ask me I say " it has something to do with Ali, the son-in-law- of the Prophet (pbuh) that's all I know.

If u r imperfect human, and I am imperfect human, so is _every_ Shi'a and (forgive me) _every_ Sunni. Let's not judge others for how they understand God, let's leave that to Al-Hakam

"they don't know that we don't support any imaging for any Holy Icons, not only Prophet Mohammed."

So, J-posten did 2 times wrong: making a drawing and mocking. So u r 2 times hurt. (I am 2 times sorry for u)

What if I make a joke about a Holy Person ? tell it to my fellow at work who is Atheist, he laughs and goes back to work, I do nothing wrong. If I tell it to u, and u get hurt, I do wrong. And I do wrong to u, not the Holy Person.
Do u understand the difference ?

Blessings

5/10/2006 3:34 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

Yes, i got it now, and as a royalty fan, i saw this in many royal families.
as for Iranians, (i'm maybe like u) i still have no touch with them or with Shi'a followers, and they hate any discussion about their behaviors, one of my teachers told me once that she just wanted to start a discussion with one of Shi'a girls, and that girl became so angry and refused any discussion with her, WOW,,, that's really scared me, bcos my teacher is Sunni and I'm not from Shi'a nor Sunna,, but I can say that we and Sunni followers are so close and we more closer than the Shi'a people, in fact , I used to have a pen-friend from other country and she told me that she is from the Shi'a, and I asked her about what they do in some their specific occasion and why they should beat themselves and do terrible things, she replied that she HATES these behaviors and want to drop it from her life. So, some of them know that what they do is WRONG, but they are keep going on in it,,,
yes, it's related to Imam Ali "and his children" and he is free from what they claim,, he was wonderful and very faithful Muslim and away from what they claim on him and his children. I started to know more about these differences between us and other Shi'a and Sunna with my brother after my graduation from college. He shocked me with what he found about them and I really don't feel happy or safe with them,, I don't what to have any related with them so far. I know that what I say now is not nice and could hurt one of them, but I'm so frank and I don't like what they have and what they do, as deep I go as far I want to be… as for us,
we don't have any strange behaviors, we celebrate with all Muslims in the two Eids, Alfeter Eid (which come after the Holy Month of Ramadan) and AlAdha Eid (which is come with the Hajj time and we sacrifice with goat or cow as what prophet Ibrahim did before), also we celebrate in the new year of Hijra calendar and celebrate the birthday of prophet Mohammed. that's only what we have, we don't have any Extra things and un-realistic occasions.(I hope they will not hate me for this candid statement!)

It's okay brother, we all make mistakes, and still imperfect as GOD wanted us.
The best thing we should do now is ignoring,, just ignore what other did or do as long as it's not causing any trouble, if they want to laugh, let them laugh and leave everything to GOD, Al Raqib.

5/12/2006 5:47 AM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

thank u again for teaching me. So many things I don't know about. Ppl in DK think there are Sunni and Shi'a (and think it's like Protestant and Catholic in Christianity) and know nothing more.
I know there are other branches of Islam but I can only think of Alevi. So here my knowledge ends.

All Iranians I know in DK have fled from the regime, and do not support the strict Shi'a in Iran. None I know are very religious.

Maybe if you talk to a young Shi'a woman (and not talk about the religious items u disagree on) u'll find u have things in common: u may both like horses and dresses :-)
(And I'm a man I know nothing about these things :-) So sometimes "best thing we should do now is ignoring,, just ignore what other did or do as long as it's not causing any trouble" As I said on my own blog if u talk about "hot issues" u may offend, but if u don't talk u don't learn. I wish to learn.

Now you "sacrifice with goat or cow as what prophet Ibrahim did before"
That looks very strange to me: but I'm sure I have traditions that are very strange to u: At Easter (in spring) we hide chocolate eggs in our gardens, and tell our children that a rabbit put them there. I think it comes from pagan times 1000 years ago. Very strange.

5/12/2006 3:53 PM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

but about the cartoons: am I right that "J-Posten did 2 times wrong: making a drawing and mocking." ?

In my opinion:
1) depicting the Prophet (pbuh) is haram _only_ if ur Muslim. It could lead to idolatry. A non-Muslim is not bound by that.

2) Mocking a Holy Person (hurting other's feelings) is wrong. Everybody is bound by that if they know about it. Only excuse is ignorance. And it takes 1 word "sorry" to be forgiven.

Now have u looked at
http://www.anotherdenmark.org/arabic

5/12/2006 4:39 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

As I said before, I not belong to Shi'a or Sunna, but I'm belong to the real Islam, to the real source of Islam (we are stick to the original teachings of Koran and the Prophet Mohammed's life),,, yes, there are other branches in Islam and not all of them are right and reflect the real Islam, sadly. I remembered watch a program in AlJazeera called (Top secret) long time ago about some groups claim they are Muslims while what they are doing is not right and away from Islam teachings. One of them talked openly and admitted that we are not Muslims, who think we are Muslims will be really stupid… some of their false acts is giving people guaranty to be in heaven if they pay amount of money, and this is absolutely not in Islam bcos no one can give people the guaranty to be in Paradise but GOD himself, and all of us will face GOD in The Day Of Judgment and who did good deeds will be in heaven and who did evil deeds will be in hill, all by GOD's will.
There are some Shi'a followers in my country, but I don't know them and I don't know any one here in my neighborhood… but I heard while I was in my college that A and B are from the Shi's and at that time I wasn't know anything about them or what they really do… I watched in TV some of their ceremony in Ashora Day where they beat themselves till their blood come out of their bodies, and that was terrifying me, I remembered I saw them when I was little girl and I dreamt of them as they chasing me to do like them and I was really scared :(
But, still, I don't have that connection to any one from the Shi'a, and maybe some of them are really nice and away from that image that we have in our minds..

For God Sake, How that can be very strange to you, don't you know about story of Ibrahim "Abraham" and his son Ismael "Ishmael" when GOD ordered Ibrahim to kill his beloved son as a test of his faith (and to teach him to put his faith and GOD as the first thing in his heart not the love of his son) and he was ready to sacrifice his son for the sake of GOD "despite his great love to his son" and his son agreed and obeyed to going through this in the sake of GOD,,
so GOD rang down a big Ram with an angel to redeem it with Ismael ,,
well, I don't know how this story looks like in ur Bible, but I think we know it as this way.
Anyway, we remember Prophet Ibrahim and his sacrifice and do the same by sacrificing goat, ram, cow, …etc, and distributing the meat to the poor people and give/share neighbors for the sake of GOD and to thank him for saving Ismael.
Yes, I know Easter Bunny and the colorful chocolate's eggs, really cute, yummy and nice, but I don't know if there is any story behind this tradition or how this Easter began?!! But still, I think it's cute and nice to make kids happy searching for the eggs in the gardens. Also, Xmas,, ,, As they waiting for Santa to bring for them a gifts that they wished before and try to be good and make good deeds to get better chance for better gifts…really cute :)

Yea, sort of, but I can accept some drawings if it's nice and decent, for example, I like some drawings of JESUS in the west, some of the drawings is really nice and touching and I do like it, but it can be harsh and offensive if it's meant to mock on others.
You brought very important subject, "idolatry",, I don't know who consider ART to be idolatry, it's all depend on how we look at that pic of statue, for example, I love art, I draw people faces and humans and I have no problem at all with that, I even think about develop my talent to make some statues.
****
A letter from Another Denmark
Lovely indeed :)
http://www.anotherdenmark.org/arabic

5/13/2006 2:48 PM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

Yes, we are imperfect human,indeed.
In Europe we had ppl selling "tickets to paradise" and whipping the sin out of themselves several hundred years ago. Are u saying you have this in the ME today ?

And yes; I know the story of Abraham/Ibrahim who nearly killed his son: so u celebrate this now? If I were a Hindu and saw Muslims sacrifice a cow, I might not like it if I didn¨t know the story behind it.

In other countries ppl have other religion, culture, tradition: The things I do as tradition, sometimes I don't know if it comes from religion or culture.

Now, I read ur original post "they really hate Muslims and Islam AND know nothing about Pure Islam and The Prophet Of Tolerance Mohammed."

Sadly, there are ppl so full of hate and fear u can't reason w/them. When u say Islam = is peaceful religion, they think Islam = terrorists. So ur not talking the same language.

For me religion/faith = my business w/God and no one else's business (unless I wish to share/discuss)
For some others religion/faith is ppl's business with other ppl. I think there os a big difference.

5/14/2006 2:59 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

Oh my God, No, we don't have these type of groups in the ME. I forgot to mention that these groups that claim they r Muslims are near Turkey and some states of the ex-soviet union. There r some good Muslims there, but they haven't good and right information about their religion and some who are greedy and evil took that as chance to make fortune and to spread the false information. As I saw again in AlJazeera last week, a man called (AlDaar Khan) who claim he is Muslim and wear the Jews' hat and claim he can cure all diseases by clapping and the poor reporter "who is originally Doctor", put himself in this man's hand and he got good bunch of beats, punches and slaps. He said, this is my first and my last time to put myself in this situation, and this AlDaar (استخف قومه فأطاعوه) means (he laughed at his people and they obeyed him.). there is no reasonable and wise human will believe such ppl like these, we should use our brains to see the reasonable and unreasonable.
Yes, we celebrate the saving of Ismael and remember the story of Ibrahim and his son.
Well, right. we r all know things as habits and traditions in our region and societies,, but sometimes, we don't know what is the true story behind that? So, we need to increase our knowledge,, we have such invocation for that (Oh GOD, Increase my Knowledge).
The problem as I see, that we all judge from what only we see most, we see what is on the surface,,, as I did before, I stayed away for years and was Muslim by name only, I thought to be Muslim as (some gloomy conveners did) you must rid of ur funny side, you must be too serious and you have to isolate yourself from all people except who is in your same look and direction…, but the truth is you should be more active, more happier, keep laughing and smiling (Prophet Mohammed said: your smile to ur brother or sister is a charity). So, I was taking the wrong image by wrong people.

And as you said: each person should deal directly to GOD, ask him, pray for him and tell him our sins and regret,,, any time, anywhere and be sure he is always will accept u.

5/16/2006 5:37 AM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

"we all judge from what only we see most, we see what is on the surface"

That is so true...we (imperfect human) can not look at anything w/out relating it to someting we know (or think we know) ...it could be other ppl's clothes [need I say hijab?] or a cartoon.

Now, coming to the Danish Cartoons: Remember the out-of virgins cartoon ? http://blog.newspaperindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/Mohammed-drawings-newspaper.jpg

Now 1000 years ago when Danes were pagans and vikings, there was a myth that a warrior who died in battle went straight to the pagan paradise, with beer, food and women (one big party).... and we heard that a Muslim warrior who died in battle would have 72 virgins. Looks like the same story. I always thought it was just a myth, a fairy-tale. So when I saw the cartoon I laughed at western minds who put their own myth into Islam. Understand ?
Only later did I find out that some suicide bombers are actually told they'll be rewarded in heaven, and can take 70 family menbers w/them.

I laughed at our own ignorance, at our own fear of suicide bombers.

What did u see in that cartoon ?

5/16/2006 2:47 PM  
Blogger Noor said...

Can you excuse me;
I will not answer you now bcos I want to write about that with some details and examples in a special post.
Wait for me :)

5/18/2006 12:49 PM  
Blogger halalhippie said...

absolutely...looking forward to it
blessings

5/18/2006 2:16 PM  

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